I was going to publish a different post for this week but one Redditor named DigitalScetis wrote a nice long reply in regards to my last article – doubts?
It tuned out to be a really interesting conversation, so here are my answers to his opinions.
DigitalScetis: Nice to know how you really think, I suppose. Here’s what I really think… I think you are really obsessed with what is a “winner” and “loser” in life; I think this has fueled a lot of your ambition, but it is also the thing that is making you–even you–not go your own way as fully as perhaps you could.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: I agree, I am not fully “going my own way” yet but does anybody is? What is the ultimate MGTOW definition? You see, you would not find one. Obsession with winning and losing -not really. I’d call this a miss.
DigitalScetis: Because if #3 has any flaw that equals #1 and #2, it’s that they think the goals, the experiences, the money and the women will make them find themselves when, in truth, they get further away from themselves.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: You cannot really find yourself in 100%.
DigitalScetis: On my deathbed, I am not going to think about the sexual conquests I had. In fact, I’d have to say that I’ve forgotten about them within a year. I am going to think about the time when I was unemployed as an adult man, living in my parents’ house, hanging out with my father for a couple of years while my mother was away. I got to know him better in those two years than I ever got to know him. The conversations we had, the experiences we shared sitting in the living room watching TV, will stay with me forever. I am glad we had that time.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Good for you! Everyone is different. I have experienced things like that in the past. That is- being unemployed and living a boring life- the only thing that it made for me was to make me more lazy and less-caring about myself, somehow. Boredom brings laziness and laziness brings stagnation. That’s not what we want!
I must admit- I did not spend years hanging out with my father like you, so this can’t really be compared.
DigitalScetis: Yeah, I was bothered and in a bad state back then; no money, no job, no game, no health. Experiences like climbing mountains and jumping out of airplanes? Pfft…back then talking a walk out to Burger King to get some breakfast was as much “adventure” as I needed. In fact, any more adventure would have made me a lot less happier.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Would you also had such a high regard for this period in your life if it wasn’t for your father? Because I won’t be happy living my life with a highlights like a trip to the Burger King 😉 At least- not anymore.
DigitalScetis: If you think any of that is going to matter to you, the adventures over nothing, the “life experiences,” “23yo Dutch girl” and all that, then it shows me that the “#3 MGTOWs,” those “adult men (let’s say 30yo upwards) who are attractive, confident and successful and have a broad range of experience with women, relationships and sex overall” have a lot of delusion going on with them as well.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: But you see – adventures, experiences and goals is what make yourself- yourself. Maybe I concentrated on sexual side too much in this, but if women would not had any influence over us we won’t be having this discussion at all, right?
DigitalScetis: And the delusion is this: that somehow (and you admit it yourself), they are never really comfortable with who they are. They always think that, if they just put in enough effort, they’ll get the happiness that they will always think will make them “complete”. It’s a redpill mentality that you find at TRP and such which I call “the superego injunction to be productive,” and it is probably one of those last, worst aspects of gynocentrism that grates on men’s souls.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: I’d say, you’re only partially right here. There’s nothing bad in trying to achieve the very best version of yourself. I’d say working on that is a higher personality trait than just giving up and accepting mediocrity and stagnation in your own life. I’d call it ambition.
DigitalScetis: The #1 MGTOW doesn’t suffer from this so much; he’s already seen that the most important things are in the little stuff that he had back when life was innocent. So he grouses a bit on the forums about women, who cares? At least he’s not constantly nagged by that voice inside his head that says, “I might be a loser, so I’d better do something about it while I can.”
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Really? Do you really believe in that? The majority of young boys/kids brag about women on social forums like Reddit and then in real life are afraid to speak up. In presence of any given women they either shy out, become quiet like a mountain or pretend to be a “normal (blue pill) dude. But the frustration inside of them is immense… Also, most of them would suddenly drop every MGTOW belief just if a nice HB9 would want to spend some time with them. Get real… libido is super-ultra-high with young men nowadays. They can’t just turn it off. They either get girls (or should I rather say- girls get them) or can’t/don’t know how so that they masturbate to porn.
DigitalScetis: The #2 can fall into it; most of his frustrations come from the inability to ever “do enough”, of what he “ought to be doing,” like “why can’t I be out at the club banging chicks on Saturday night and I’m stuck playing Minecraft instead?” to which I say, “playing Minecraft all night Saturday? That’s awesome that you have the ability to do that, how cool!”
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Yeah, but for how long?
DigitalScetis: Men need to learn to be comfortable in their own skin; in that I agree with you. But I don’t think for one moment that the #3 MGTOWs, the ones who have all those traits of worldly success, the “attractive, confident and successful and have a broad range of experience with women, relationships and sex overall” MGTOWs, have a leg up on this one.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: My point was that being in the #3 group probably makes out the most conscious MGTOW– he is no longer inexperienced as the #1, he didn’t made the mistakes as the #2 – he can easily be on top of his “game” in getting women but still he decides to go MGTOW and not getting involved in relationships anymore. The #1 don’t have experience/knowledge and resources for that- only high libido; the #3 don’t have the libido and they might not have the resources/experience either! (marriage does not promote knowledge!). So their choices to become MGTOW are forced by the nature/current situation of their lives. It’s a necessity rather than a free choice.
DigitalScetis: In a lot of ways, it’s those key traits that gain them external validation with relative ease that really get in the way of finding peace with who and what they are.
That, to me, is the “hidden doubt” I see in that blog post, that “Yet, with all this knowledge that I have… somehow I still feel incomplete.”
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: The feeling of incompletion is really simple: I just feel the inner need to share my happiness with someone else, that I also can have sex with. And we all know what this means- I am reaching that point in being alone, where I feel big surplus in my internal energy. That’s why I begin to feel the need to share it with someone. I tried spending more time with a dog of my friend as he is often away so I can take care of him for weeks, I tried friends (even female friends) and it of course doesn’t work. Not fully. My last try would be going forward with one of my passions. This might work – I hope it will! 😉
That’s why I wonder whether this is our own biological paradigm. Women feel the need to breed, make family etc. and men feel the need to share, protect and fuck.
DigitalScetis: Perhaps that’s why you felt the need to lash out at the folks who don’t need to buy yachts and have sex with 23 year old Danish girls to feel “complete,” but can get by on a six pack of beer, Overwatch on PS4, and a grouse or two on r/MGTOW.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: True. I also love to play some games from time to time. I loved beer years ago. I still love r/MGTOW 🙂 But it still doesn’t made me feel satiated. My motivation and goals are higher than just that. Arnold Schwarzenegger did not stopped on winning Mr Universe just once. He won it several times. Then he went for a career as an actor. Then he banged Ms Kennedy. Then he became a governor. Again – it’s called ambition.
Ambition is what made men land on the comet recently. Rosetta mission.
DigitalScetis: Because they demonstrate that they have achieved an inner peace with themselves that you, it seems, have yet to discover. But rather than say “good for them!,” you say “A normal healthy man cannot avoid” getting all worked up about scoring with women, and “He would not want to avoid” doing that, unless he was just (as if we haven’t heard it 1000 times from Rooshies, Elamites, and Clareyists already) “the biggest beta-blue-piller-manginas” or “who are either still a virgins or had their first few experiences with females which didn’t exactly went the way they thought it will.”
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Most of the overweight nerdy gamers (or skinny nerdy gamers) pretend to be happy but in fact they dream of a pussy every day.
A normal healthy man has a normal healthy libido. I just don’t see this working otherwise. Whether he heard about TRP/MGTOW doesn’t matter. This is how our biology works.
DigitalScetis: Now you can call them what you want. Lord knows I have to put out redpill ragefests and stupid theories about sex and women here daily. But at least they do not feel “incomplete” as you put it, when they do the things they want to do. Normal, healthy men can cut women, dating, sex and everything else out of their lives, and normal, healthy men really can want to cut the relationship thing out of their lives. In fact, I think it is about as healthy of a thing a man can do in this environment.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: He can, but would he be satisfied? It might work for a while for a young inexperienced boy, might work for old past-marriage-divorce-raped dude with low libido but for a 30-something man in his prime? How long he can go on without sex? Let’s say masturbation is not an option. I am soon closing to two years time-mark without any relationship and without dating. Of course I use escorts from time to time. I don’t pretend that glorified masturbation to porn makes me as happy as fucking the real thing.
DigitalScetis: But whatever I think is inconsequential; you don’t think that its healthy or sane. And so, you’ll pursue it, build your self-esteem around doing it well, and spend a lot of energy spinning plates and such. Spin away, I say.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: You did read that wrong- I currently do not spin any plates. Because in my opinion it’s not worth the time/energy/effort/money. But still, it’s about female validation. The longer I live the more I see that Alex on Life was right here. Men appreciation means less to us than female appreciation. Again, biology and genetics play their role I believe. Unless you’re spending tons of money on escorts so that you can build up a nice “relationship-esque” relation with them it won’t give you enough of that validation, either.
DigitalScetis: But if you think that you’ll be thinking about all the pussy you scored on your deathbed, that’s not how I think it’ll turn out. A guy like you is so driven, so burdened by the need to be productive, that you’ll probably be on your death bed obsessing over what you could have done to score with the one girl you didn’t bang, over the scores of girls you did. That just seems like how guys like that roll, from what I’ve seen.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Well, in fact I am not the most productive guy that I know. 😀 But yeah, at the same time I am more productive than some guys that I know. I’d choose cycling 100km over sitting in front of a TV with a beer, anytime. But that’s me.
What I really meant is that the pussy was only a part of the whole experience. I’d be rather reminding myself not only of that Dutch pussy but all that went together with it – where I was with her, what was that made us laugh, what did we do and so on, and so forth. This is why that kind of experience is more valuable than just fucking pussy through the escort service (unless you can pay a ton of money as I’ve mentioned, so that you can meet the girl as often as you want)
MGTOW is a bit like cutting a hair into four parts, and then doing it again. And again. On the top layer there’s this common reality- be successful, build a house, plant a tree and make your wife pregnant with your son.* Then the lower layer is the Red Pill philosophy. Women act according to their hypergamy, and biological imperatives. The whole picture is still looking good for men, as long as you learn how to “game” them and hold the “frame“.
If you dig even deeper, there’s MGTOW. You learn that there’s no real love, men always lose when compared to women and we all need to concede to them if we want to get anything at all.
Not everyone even wants to hear or learn about these truths and I understand that! But I am on the lower layers of this onion-matrix and still, something is missing. I certainly don’t miss sitting in home being unemployed. I don’t miss unhealthy food or drinking alcohol to death. I love my bike trips, and other adrenaline-inducing stuff. But I am still looking for something that will make me more fulfilled as a human being. I don’t feel this is an obsession. I call it a healthy trait in me. I call it an ambition. And I am actively looking for something that would produce enough satisfaction without involving females into that. I don’t think that it might definitely exist. It might not be there as well and that would mean living a life of a loner or going back to females for some validation. But we both know how this often ends.
*I know maybe two couples that seems to be happy. That old colleague of mine is confident, successful, got a nice wife, nice job in his own company and finally she recently became pregnant. I of course believe that he will succumb into her demands, and that he’ll become more submissive. But maybe he will not? Time will tell- watch this space.