This is a continuation of my discussion with DigitalScetis. Initially started as a comment on Reddit.
Please note that this is the final part of the conversation in a form of an article. Any pending replies from DS or myself will be posted in the comments, as I need to move on with other materials on the site.
DigitalScetis: Wow…I didn’t think my comment got to you so much, RMH.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: As I said in the past – I always cherish good discussion between every community member, not only those who seem to be more “famous”.
DigitalScetis: Here’s why I wrote the reply I did. I find little difference between what you wrote and what Aaron Clarey and Mike Savage write about MGTOW; that the only people out there who are doing MGTOW the “right way” do not call themselves MGTOW, and they live their lives by pursuing women, working out, making lots of money and going on adventures.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: I’ve read both articles and I tend to agree. Bear in mind that Aaron wrote “But they’re too busy actually being MGTOW to write about it, let alone care if they’re labelled “MGTOW.” I am not convinced about the “pursuing women” part. All that I try to point out is that a typical healthy successful modern man don’t want/don’t need to (or don’t think that he needs) cut himself out of relationships with women. And of course, that’s why he fails. I am not saying that this works. We all heard what is currently happening to Johny Depp.
You see, this website is an ongoing experiment. I have started it without planning its exact shape in advance. If you will read my older posts you will clearly see how my voyage into MGTOW fields is evolving. This is a continuous journey. I don’t ditch out The Red Pill philosophy or its methods, either – that’s why you can find a lot of TRP tags and a sub-menu dedicated only to this topic. I’ve found out that both ways of life often merge into one. The borders are very fluid. And I try to be balancing between both of them whilst looking for my identity as a man.
DigitalScetis: These men, however, don’t constitute the “vast majority” of MGTOW, however, who are just ‘bitter, blue pilled losers who can’t get laid’, using MGTOW as an excuse not to “improve themselves” in a way that looks conspicuously like the things this gynocentric society wants men to do. That’s what I see in your thoughts about the necessity of “ambition” and your previous thoughts in “doubts”.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Well, you see what you want to see. 😉 But isn’t the will to improve oneself, achieve more, gain strength of character and break through continuous barriers at the very core of masculine energy? Isn’t that what men are, deep down? One never wants to be this crippled, mutated soldier from 300 who went into betrayal to get what he wanted. We all want to be Leonidas, or one from his own flock. The best of the best.
I am not saying that the ultimate way which brings happiness means marrying up, going into long term relationship, living with a woman and helping her to clone herself through pregnancy. I don’t know who are the “majority” of MGTOW because no group is big enough to be considered representative. I’ve heard about old ones – mostly over YouTube channels. On Reddit there’s a majority of very young ones. I am somewhere in the middle. I believe the core values of MGTOW are valid across our ages, especially in modern times, when feminism and brain-washing (“rape culture” etc.) is so prevalent. But how one acts upon them differs a lot.
DigitalScetis: This kind of shaming needs to be responded to in no uncertain terms whenever it appears, RMH, so I apologize if you got hit in the cross-hairs with my critique. Still, I think those critics of MGTOW, and by extension, your critique of MGTOW, presume too much about human happiness in general, and male happiness in particular.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: You see, I do not shame anyone. At least, no more than anyone else. I speak out loud what I think and what are my observations. Maybe it’s the spring time, maybe I am just going through another phase in my “MGTOW” thing. Maybe I also feel that I am in my prime-time and somehow I am not experiencing it to the full. Somehow biology made me in a way that I want plenty of attractive women longing after me. Who does not want that? To fight our biology through adequate ways (pornography, escorts, monk-mode) is certainly possible but the question is whether going this way will lead you to happiness. Of course, women don’t bring happiness either. At least not in the way we expect them to. 😉
DigitalScetis: I find it interesting that you start your critique of my observations with the question “what is the ultimate MGTOW definition? You see, you would not find one.” And what I find odd is that, in saying this, a lot of assertions are made throughout about what MGTOW are not, followed by a kind of closet assertion about what “going your own way” ought to mean–not just for yourself, but for the rest of us as well.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Again, yes and no. The very basic conceptions of MGTOW are good: no marriage, no kids, no LTRs. And I am still baffled how one can “go his own way” with a permanent obligation -that is having a child that is dependent on you for the first 25 years of its life. I just tend to think about the more detailed parts of the MGTOW definition. I don’t agree that MGTOW equals “going monk-mode” or that we should “remove ourselves from the society”. Unless this is what you want to become then sure go for it but I don’t see it as being a good prescription for every single MGTOW.
DigitalScetis: And the example you give, of Arnold Schwarzenegger, seems to clarify what you think we MGTOW ought to be pursuing. Power. Fame. Riches. Ambition.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Maybe not MGTOW, but a developed confident and mature man who knows what he wants, has goals and follows his dreams. Again, isn’t this at the very core of our masculinity? Please note that I’d mention only about ambition. Power, fame, and being rich often comes along. But ambition needs to be first- always. And also it’s up to you whether you become an asshole or someone worthy.
DigitalScetis: Interestingly enough though, the example you give of says little about what a man’s internal life ought to be like. His intellectual life. His ability to be comfortable in his own nature. His (for lack of a better term) spiritual state. You think it was this restless hunger, this lack of satisfaction, that caused him to have the drive to achieve power and worldly success.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Yes, you’re right. But how many overweight nerds are really comfortable in being overweight? Maybe only those who became famous as casters of multiplayer tournaments. 😉 You see, being a MGTOW doesn’t mean you suddenly stop being influenced by our human nature that C.G. Jung or Freud described in their late works.
DigitalScetis: And yet, it was this same restless hunger that caused him to throw it all away. The politics, his rich famous wife, everything he had built was put into jeopardy. Why would a man that has achieved things that men could only dream about find himself in the arms of a Mexican cleaning woman, so many rungs below him in the SMP? It’s because what we think is going on isn’t what is really going on within his soul. This is a man who is so hungry, so unsatisfied, that his desires would have gotten him into a lot of trouble, had he not been lucky enough along the way to fall into the right circumstances.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Yes, but it was only one small mistake. Clinton made a bigger one with his cigar. 😉 And Lewinsky wasn’t specially pretty, too. So why they did it? Isn’t that curious, that those who are famous are often under spotlights because of such affairs? Now, “normal” people are also being caught up by their spouses but they are not celebrities so we don’t heard about it every day. Or only our work colleague mentions from time to time that “Jack betrayed Suzy with Stephen”. You see what I mean? We all do this. This is our human nature. Also, the bottom line is that Arnold will be remembered for many things, and the fact that he was caught up shagging some pussy would not derail his other achievements. That is a success to me.
Johny Depp? Well, I am all after him and I wish him best but he’d certainly lost his mind marrying up without the pre-nup. And Schwarzenegger? I don’t know. Maybe he just wanted to fuck her. Maybe she manipulated him into it. Probably both. Maybe there’s no escape from female validation/pussy chase trap. Who knows.
What I’ve found out is that abstaining from contacts with women doesn’t work very good. You become a social outcast. If you don’t want to be one, you need to go out with people from work, and this implies having female colleagues or friends. Practically you are not able to cut yourself out from them. And it should be easier with time, yes? In my case- somehow it suddenly became more hard. Again, maybe this is temporary. Maybe I just need to let off some steam. 😉
DigitalScetis: Assuming we could ever be Schwarzeneggers (we are talking a very small percentage of people), for every Schwarzenegger, there are tens of thousands that never have the luck to make good on their desires. If you don’t believe me, watch Pain & Gain.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: I haven’t seen this movie …but it’s just a movie. 🙂 In fact, Arnold is a normal man. He doesn’t have IQ of 200 etc. He was just working hard his whole life. Luck was just a small part, if any. Universe always helps if you’re going the right way. Trust me on that one. The belief that we cannot achieve much unless we are born under a lucky star is not true. This is a limiting belief that so many people have. This is a curse of our modern male society. We feel powerless! And women use that against us very well!
DigitalScetis: Ambition, especially, is one of those concepts that needs to be unpacked and explored far more than it has in most of the manosphere. I agree with you that it is a strong male disposition, but is it a free disposition? Or is it one of those relics of gynocentrism that justifies male disposability? You seem to think that ambition explains male happiness well; I have my doubts. I think I stand on good philosophical ground, going back to Plato, that ambition explains male destruction far more than male happiness. This whole “get rich or die trying” mentality leads most men to “die trying” rather than “getting rich”. The engine of society is built that way, and it has created many fine things and rewarded many men. But has it made more men more happy than have been made unhappy? I’m not so sure that it has.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: I see your point here. But Leonardo da Vinci, Tesla or others like them – they worked for themselves, their passions. Not for gynocentrism. Sometimes it causes more misery than happiness for the person involved, that is correct. Tesla’s life summed up rather bad. It was a personal tragedy for him. And still, here we are in 2016 talking about this guy. Amazing, isn’t it? But I doubt that it makes any difference for him now. 😉
DigitalScetis: Whenever we talk about ambition, it always seems to be about things that women and society want. Now you claim that “ambition is what made men land on the comet recently,” but I really don’t think ambition had much to do with it.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Have you seen “Ambition“? It’s about that landing. Oh yeah, there is a woman in it. I know. They are everywhere. 😉
DigitalScetis: I personally believe Stardusk when he says that we get things like scientific discovery to the extent that we can learn not to be ambitious for things like fame, glory, riches or power. But that’s a discussion for another time. Suffice it to say that, when discussing ambition, we don’t think of the legion of scientists working on Rosetta crunching numbers in obscurity for a pittance. We think of Schwarzenegger; an example which is far removed from what Rosetta was about.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: It wouldn’t be possible without ambition. And I never said that one should be ambitious in order to gain fame, glory, money or power. A man should be ambitious so that he can develop himself, gain strength of character and chase his dreams. It’s not possible to do these things without it.
Of course you’re right with the fact that Schwarzenegger comes to our mind before scientists working on some math. That’s another weird custom of our times. Also, most scientists have “stable” lives with wives and kids. Family helps them to concentrate on their goals. Are their MGTOWs? I don’t know how this is possible. Maybe it is. But it would undermine the very basis of MGTOW. In fact, they probably don’t think so much as we do. Maybe this is the solution? But again, how we can forget the Matrix? What is the Cypher solution for our world. To un-learn… maybe not everything, but enough to be able to love again?
Of course, I wouldn’t want that. If I can’t have a real, deep love I won’t take anything less than the full meal.
DigitalScetis: A much better example of MGTOW, for me, is the story of Shigeru Nakayama, one of the first story posts I made on r/MGTOW. The so-called “hermit of the jungle” who went his own way into the Amazon rainforest. This is a man who is not obsessed with external trappings of fame, wealth, women and so on. He lived his life in obscurity, just doing the thing that his spirit inclined him to do. Can we call him “ambitious”? Perhaps in a very hackneyed way, but whatever ambition he had was very different than the sort of ambition those “type #3 MGTOW” seem to admire.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: There are probably many good examples of MGTOWs – both more and less unorthodox. Not everyone want or can go deep into the jungle- I like my internet and toilet paper. One of my colleagues went to live into the Amazon jungle. He was there to learn how to become a shaman and then earn money from healing the tourists. Solid plan, haha. He left everything behind. That required a lot of courage, but he didn’t had much anyway. Ironically it turned out that Ayahuasca didn’t worked on him for some reason so he was left there without money and ways to live. It turns out that you need money even in the Amazon basin. Our civilization is almost everywhere now and of course you need means in order to survive. This is also not a solution for an ordinary John who wants to achieve something but not necessarily downgrade his way of living.
Also, to me chasing your dreams might mean releasing your own album on Beatcamp, and not landing a major position in a well-known corporation.
DigitalScetis: And all I’m saying, RMH, is that there are plenty of Shigeru Nakayamas in the world who have learned to dream about things that run counter to the dreams we “ought” to be having about women, power, wealth and all of that. And they can be very robust too, because they are not so tied to acquire those things that others need to validate themselves.
You say that “adventures, experiences and goals is what make yourself- yourself,” but it seems that you have a very clear idea of what these adventures, experiences and goals ought to look like. For my part, the adventures which are rather mundane for some might be very insightful for others if they can learn to appreciate the details. There are a lot of very rich, very successful, very ‘driven’ people who are mental wrecks; they cannot see the good things they have because they are so bothered by the things they want to have. So whenever someone comes by and laments his lack of women, I always remind them (as perhaps you ought to as well), that a lot of the good things in life that they enjoy will probably have to go; most importantly, their freedom to enjoy the things they do now.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Are you sure Nakayama didn’t use any hookers? 😉 But on a more serious note, when I will meet someone like that personally then I can ask him and be sure whether he wasn’t missing something. You always need to devote yourself to an idea and through this, you also always lose something.
I absolutely agree with the second part. Material gains should go in line with inner gains. Somehow posts about “healthy living” aren’t very popular on Red Male Hummingbird in terms of people visiting them. You know which are the most popular? 😉 People want to hear about how women are bad and how to get their pussies without struggle (Escort thing) but not really about how change their lives for the better.
DigitalScetis: That’s where I think we ought to be as men who are going our own ways, and this isn’t something new. As far back as ancient Greece and Rome, the older men have been telling the younger men that pussy is not all it is cracked up to be. Will they listen? Probably not, but that doesn’t make our admonitions any less true. Heck RMH, I totally get that, at this point in your life, you want to “share your happiness with someone else” that you can also “have sex with”. I even have times that I want that as well. But I think that both you and I admit that this might not be possible in the way we dream it does.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Yes, this is true. It’s not possible the way we dream about it. Of course. I know that. I haven’t forgot. Dont’ worry. 😉 But that does not make me feel less empty. And I am not afraid to say that. Maybe when you’re let’s say- 50 or 60 years old- this feeling is more easy to deal with. Maybe it will be possible to fill that gap through giving myself out to the people through realizing my passions. As the old saying goes- you need to find your gift and then give it back to the rest of the world. In the meantime, I do not plan to suddenly change my course and fall in love or start dating some girl who is below my standards. And damn, they are pretty high by now so I am rather safe, haha.
DigitalScetis: That’s unicorn thinking and NAWALT thinking, and I see you recognizing that at the end. Anything is possible, I suppose, just like an Austrian gym rat becoming the governor of the largest state in the USA. But as Nassim Taleb would say, “consider the graveyard”; the same qualities that made Schwarzenegger who he was are the same qualities that I see among men who are doing badly. That’s just the way I see it, RMH. I’ve enjoyed a lot of content of yours over the years and I feel, well, far more important than I am in MGTOW circles when you decided to respond to my post. But what I read the last few days seems to run dangerously close to a refutation of all the good things MGTOW has done for men these past few years, in favor of things which, if we are not more careful, may do more harm than good.
RMH Datson Horrenbrand: Again, if anyone across MGTOW pretends to be more or less important than others then well, we’ve lost our cause. It’s all about freedom of speech, enjoying the conversation and finding the best way to develop ourselves. This is something that only a small amount of women ever do, so I do believe we are on a good ship.